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Post by esterteixeira on Sept 13, 2015 16:48:15 GMT
Hello everybody! First of all, I would like to state that it is somewhat comforting to see that we are on the same boat and I am not crazy, because some people look at me as if they disapprove of the fact that I forget or misuse some Portuguese words due to L2 interference (English, in this case). I guess they simply think I am being snobbish and that is definitely not like that. I totally agree with you guys when you pointed out the wax and wane of languages, about which we read in the first assigned text and it has much to do with what we have been discussing here, since language dominance varies throughout life owing to different reasons and, like Joyce said, I believe sometimes there is a shift of the dominant language and this prevalent language will surely interfere another language, even if it is the speaker's L1. So, here I am to attest that my mother tongue (Portuguese) is not stable, rather it is by all means susceptible to change. I cannot recall if this permeability was so noticeable in my life before becoming a teacher, although I can clearly remember catching myself thinking in English even when not attending English lessons. Despite the fact that I have never travelled abroad, I have been teaching advanced groups on a daily basis for some years and I spend a great deal of my time (at least 8h a day) immersed in the English language, be it teaching, involved in teacher training or studying - but all I have just mentioned is carried out in English so, like Nubia, I even dream in English sometimes, believe it or not. To illustrate it, I would like to share with you some of the countless personal examples I have experienced throughout these seven years as a teacher of English. The most recent ones that are coming back to me now are the following: Two weeks ago, I attended a lecture organized by the language institute I work for, but the session was held in another branch and when I got to work, a workmate asked, in Portuguese: "Onde cê tava?" (because I arrived a little later than usual) and I replied, also in Portuguese: "Eu tava atendendo (!) a palestra." Then, of course she laughed and took the mick out of me, yet she was understanding as she is also an English teacher and knows the collocation "attend a meeting, lecture etc." This is the latest example I can recall now but I have already said things like "fiz um erro" because of "make a mistake" and I tend to think that I am forgetting Portuguese Rarely do I write in Portuguese, so some time ago I was writing an e-mail and I intended to write "tempo hábil", but instead I wrote "abil" automatically and I strongly believe it was because of 'ability' since I swear I used to be a proficient writer of Portuguese, guys. Believe me! Of course it was a slip and I immediately corrected it but it got me thinking about how forgetful I am getting of Portuguese structures. This phenomenon is at the same time interesting and scary, don't you guys agree with me?
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Post by danielle on Sept 13, 2015 17:47:46 GMT
Hello y'all As all of you have said..I do believe mother tongue is not stable. Just like Ester and Vanessa, I have never been abroad. But when I first became a teacher, I used to work at a language institute where we could only speak English, all the time! It was mandatory. I used to work 12 hours a day. There was an American teacher and a Dutch teacher working there. So, I had no other choice but to speak English. Some moths later, I was talking to my sister (in Portuguese) telling her about my job and I told her "Ah, os alunos ficam sentados em volta de uma table". We both started laughing about it. Never had I done something like that before. I guess that happened because I projected the image of "the" specific table where I used to work with my students in my mind. I remember feeling good about it. It felt as if I was finally becoming native-like. Well, anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if that can happen living in Brazil, what can I say about people who live abroad?
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Post by fabiocei on Sept 13, 2015 18:29:29 GMT
Good afternoon Sunday for all.
One experience I remembered is about a brother of my stepfather who moved to the Switzerland about twenty years ago and at first times that he came to Brazil I couldn’t perceive any difference in his speech, but after years now it is possible to realize his difficult to speak Portuguese naturally, he already was an adult, around 20 years, when he moved now he is about 40, there, he speaks French and Germany at work.
Some times when he is talking is clear for me his syntax errors, as he hardly uses Portuguese there the mother tongue of him is totally influenced by French and sometimes Germany structure.
So I conclude that our first language is deeply permeable, but I keep thinking that it is a result of our use of the language and in which context and what are the interaction situations and to whom we are talking with.
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Post by tatichaves on Sept 13, 2015 19:38:23 GMT
Hello everyone,
Li says that both L1 and L2 can change and lose or have more importance in our lives depending on how frequently we use them. I have a childhood friend called Tamara. She moved to the USA when she was 16 (11 years ago) to finish high school there. Whenever I talk to Tamara, I have the opportunity to see how speaking Portuguese has become a difficult task. She hesitates in English and she finds it difficult to tell long stories in Portuguese. She went to the USA with a basic knowledge of English and now, 11 years later, she finds it difficult to keep on talking in Portuguese and she has acquired a third language ( Spanish) because she met many people from South America.
Something that called my attention was when I saw an interview with the world-famous top model Gisele Bundchen ( I do not know if it is misspelled lol). Gisele was having problems to tell stories about her childhood in English and also hesitated a lot showing that she was not that fluent in Portuguese anymore. Gisele is married to an American quaterback and lives in The USA.
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Post by nandoca on Sept 13, 2015 22:32:48 GMT
Hi everyone! I started studying formal English when I was 17 years old, and I´ve started teaching when I was 18/19. During my English course I started the Spanish course, as soon as I could I started teaching it too, so It was very funny because after and English class I had to teach Spanish, and when the word in Spanish didn´t come in my mind, the only one that used to came was English and not Portuguese. Another situation that happens to me until today is to use the Spanish or English words in my routine of speaking. So sometimes I want to say “tira-gosto” and only word that comes is “tapas” in Spanish. As I teach in a bilingual school for children, when I arrive home my son call me for something I answer in English. So I agree with Joyce when she mentions the text and it says "our first language is more permeable than traditionally though, and that such L2 to L1 influences not only exist in early, simultaneous, bilingual language acquisition, but also in late, successive language learning" (Li, 2013. P. 58).”.
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Post by mariaclaranunes on Sept 13, 2015 22:44:46 GMT
Hello y'all! I reckon we all have had moments that exemplify the fact that our native language is permeable. As Osvando mentioned, I often find myself looking for a word in Portuguese to express myself and the only thing that comes to my mind is English. I can remember a recent event to illustrate that. I had to write an essay in Portuguese and I was not able to remember linking words to write cohesively. The ones I used did not seem to express exactly what I wanted to say. And I also feel the same as Ester, when she says people sometimes find her snobbish because she sounds influenced by the English language. You have provided examples of migrants who stopped using L1 for a while and then struggled to express themselves in L1 later, as well as examples of people who have never been abroad - like me - but who shows L1 permeability by L2. I believe both cases are right. I was also thinking of Anglicism, I mean, new words in Portuguese that appear due to the influence of English words in everyday life, specially regarding technology. There are some words that we change the original form including a suffix of Portuguese (e.g.:deletar, upar) and others that we don't change (e.g.: "Estou me sentindo um loser." "Este download está demorando!"). Do you think it can be an example of language permeability? I am looking forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Maria Clara
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Post by sylmara on Sept 13, 2015 23:46:09 GMT
Hi, dear all.
We all have had some examples in which we are able to identify the aspects presented in the research question that states that L1 is permeable. Depending on the exposition of L2 through life, a native speaker will be more or less influenced by it. Joyce explained it in a very interesting way at her post, when she exposed her difficulties to go deeper in conversation in relation to some specific topics like Politics, Economics, etc. in German.
I have a Brazilian friend who moved to Australia. She's been living there for three years and this year she had the opportunity to come to Brazil and stay for a month. Visiting her at her mother's house, I could identify she has some difficulties to make full sentences in Portuguese, mainly when she had to tell a story that had different verb tenses, like present, past, future. She misunderstood things like "Eu queria, eu quis", and new words like "mensalão", "petrodolar"... we had to explain them to her because she wasn't familiar to them.
I think this example and also those presented in this forum show how L2 can influence L1 and how languages are permeable and exposed to the wax and wane process.
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Post by Josi on Sept 14, 2015 17:33:00 GMT
Hello! Iagree with my colleagues that our mother tongue can be changeable. (wax and wane of language). My cousin has been lived for 3 years in the USA, when he comes to Brazil, he forgets some simple words in Portuguese and somtimes have to think before speak.
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Post by lilian6 on Sept 14, 2015 22:55:30 GMT
Responses 3: In phonological learning, the Speech Learning model is different between child-adult. In lexical learning, the Chinese learner of English as L2 uses only word like mug to refer three English terms like mug, glass an cup. Because “in Chinese the word beizi is used to refer to all objects covered by the three English terms”(p. 157). And in grammatical learning, talking about time. According the text the ”temporal reference can be encoded in a variety of ways in different languages”( p. 160)
Responses 4: I taught English for consecutive six years ten times ago. In this time, It was usual I bring words and sentences to my thoughts in Portuguese. Some years later, I began to teach sociology at high school. So, some keywords used when I was a English teacher, sometimes I use to speak this keywords in Sociology class. For example: good morning class. Another case, it’s a German child boy (2 years) who I knew in Brazil, he was learning Portuguese-German in the same time. So, he passed 6 months here, and six months in Germany. When Portuguese was the language in dominance he put German in the sentence when he was talking; when German was the language in dominance he put Portuguese in the sentences.
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Post by carina on Sept 15, 2015 0:35:54 GMT
As Claudia said: "I agree with the ideia that both L1 and L2 are permeable and can be changed with the time, depending on the frequence of its use". I have my own experience living in Chicago for 3 years, without speaking in Portuguese while I was there, when I came back some words just disappeared from my mind. I know it was a short time, but it could already cause some failure in my mind. An a simple example happened when I was talking to my mother and I couldn't remember how to say "vanilla"in português... it was funny but true.
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Post by Liliane Késsia Marques on Sept 15, 2015 1:33:27 GMT
I have a cousin who was born and lived in Brazil until he was 25 years old. At 25 years old he moved to France where he has lived for about 20 years. In that time he has lived in France he learned to speak fluent French, a language that now he know pretty well, but lost much Portuguese. When he comes to Brazil, he sometimes finds it difficult to communicate with speakers of Portuguese and forgets simple words from everyday use as "se machucar". He tried to say, "Cuidado, você vai se machucar" and simply could not find the words to express this simple idea in Portuguese, even this being his L1. With time and everyday use Portuguese as L1 became L2 and French as L2 became L1. Although he learned a second language at a late age, daily use has caused him to become fluent in L2 and lost much of L1 from lack of use thereof.
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Post by Fabiana Sampaio on Sept 15, 2015 2:07:44 GMT
Hi Lívia,
Your example of expression that seem to fit better on such context, tend to happen to me too. I try to behave as much as can but even when I talk to someone that doesn't understand English at all I don't realize that I put some words in English between the conversation. I believe that happens because I spent too many years abroad and got used to communicate only in English.
For people that are listening, it could sound as a show off but it is definitely not. It's just L2 interfering in L1.
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Post by Fabiana Sampaio on Sept 18, 2015 16:01:37 GMT
Hi guys!!
I really like Ester's examples because people also look at me differently when I put some words in English between our conversation. As she mentioned they might think that we are being snobbish. Which is not true. Unfortunately, I have something to confess: Before living abroad I always heard people that speak other languages mixing L2 and L1 or even more and I used to criticize them a lot. Now, I know how that feels. Like Danielle said, that can happen even with people that have never been abroad.
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Post by gabriellellinhares on Sept 19, 2015 3:15:57 GMT
Very interesting Livia! Sometimes that situation happens to me, especially in the classroom. I think is paramount to highlight the dynamic between learner, languages (L1 and L2) and environment, which interact better if we assume that our first language is permeable. I can't think in a personal example that supports the idea of L1 permeability, because my use of L2 is relatively low. My learners are in the early stages of learning, and the use of the portuguese is still necessary.
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Post by isabeladias on Sept 20, 2015 21:52:26 GMT
These are all great examples, guys! I find it quite reassuring to see that the permeability of our native language is not because we are doing something "wrong". As I have already posted, I feel this when I have to write in Portuguese, and I see it when I speak to my sister. She lives in Paris, and she speaks excellent French, and now her English has a really strong accent, and even her Portuguese has a lot of interference, especially in pronunciation.
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